Meet Fred from the Sax School tutor team

 

In this episode I’m chatting to Fred from our Sax School tutor team to dig into his career as a pro sax player.

Joining The Average White Band

Nigel: So Fred, in Sax School, we all know you as part of the Sax School tutor team, of course. And lots of our listeners will know you as the sax guy from the Average White Band. I’m curious though – did you always think that you’d end up like playing with a band like the Average White Band?

Fred: No, the short answer to that one is definitely not. I had actually kind of given up thinking that I was going to do any kind of touring gig. I had spent a lot of time trying to get there. So I was auditioning. And I was living in the New York area, hanging out in New York and meeting as many people as I could.

But it just didn’t work out. And at that time it was 1996. What is that? 28 years ago?  I didn’t think it was going to happen. And I’d gone back to university to get my teaching degree. 

Networking is crucial

N: Is that right? Wow. Give us a bit of an idea of what that was like – auditioning for bands and all that sort of thing. It must’ve been a lot of networking, right? 

F: I mean, that’s it. It. Every gig I’ve ever gotten and probably every gig that most people that I know have gotten, is all about knowing somebody. And I didn’t audition for the Average White Band. I was recommended by a guy that I knew who worked at a music store.

It might sound like sour grapes, but I don’t really think it is because I’ve talked to other people in the same boat. I’d hear “Oh this guy I know auditioned for Al Jarreau – and these guys are great players. I auditioned for Joe Cocker’s tour because the guitar player in the band recommended me.

But I always feel like those auditions, especially in that business, are kind of foregone conclusions. It’s like they have somebody already, but they just want to see what’s out there. So you get your hopes up, but it doesn’t really happen. Of course, it just also could have been they didn’t like the way I played. That’s always a possibility.

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Opportunities

But with The Average White Band, they asked me because I just knew a bunch of people. I knew the original sax player in the band – he was my neighbor, and he recommended me to play in a horn section on the record. And also I played gigs with the drummer in the band at the time – Pete Abbott.  I’d done weddings and all sorts of stuff with him. And then Elliot Lewis, who was the keyboard player and bass player in the band – he worked at a local music store and he recommended me.

So it was just right place, right time. Also of course, it’s about being prepared when the opportunity comes. And surprisingly enough I was. 

Great connections

Nigel: Yeah, that’s a whole really important conversation. And well, you know, you’ve been working with us in the Sax School tutor team for a while now.

We’ve had so many amazing, like legendary players come and do masterclasses for Sax School. And every single one of them – from Tom Scott to Lou Marini to Andy Snitzer, all these guys said exactly the same thing. ‘I was really prepared, I took every opportunity’. Or ‘I met lots of people. I got a lucky break.’ It takes all those things to come together.

So 1996. That was quite a lot of years that you were kicking around the scene, making contacts. And you’ve played with lots of other really interesting people. So that must’ve been quite an interesting journey .Plus it was a busy time in New York. I guess there was a lot of music going on through the eighties and nineties, right?

Fred: Yeah, it was. I mean, there was a lot of work. There was a lot of work in in that area. I lived about 45 minutes outside of New York. So I wasn’t really on the scene, but I was adjacent. And I knew a lot of [people].

Andy Snitzer and I – we both played weddings together. I knew Andy because he was doing what we call ‘club dates’ –  weddings and private parties. And I met him at a wedding showcase or something like that. I had heard about him. The drummer in my band went to University of Miami with him and he’s like ‘You got to check this guy out’. And he was a bad dude back then!  We had kind of subbed in different bands for each other and stuff like that.

Learning from Lou Marini

F: But yeah, I wouldn’t say I was on the scene, but I was adjacent to it, I would say. And I also had the connection with Lou Marini because I studied with him for a long time. He would take me around to the sessions.I would have a lesson and he would say, ‘Oh, I can’t do a lesson today, but come and hang out at this recording session and soak it in’. Or ‘why don’t you come down – I’m doing a Saturday night Live rehearsal and you can hang out. Linda Ronstadt and Phoebe Snow are doing a duet’. That kind of stuff. I was very lucky in that respect. And it makes me wish that I had probably practiced more.

My teacher quit

Nigel: So on that topic, because you mentioned how you were really prepared. So what was your approach to practice back in those days? 

Fred: I had none. It’s funny because I remember Joel and you talking about how you used to practice eight to 12 hours a day and Joel being super disciplined. And that was never me.

Man, I was so lazy and directionless for most of my life – probably the first three quarters of my life. I started when I was 10 and I thought I knew everything. I had teachers who quit teaching because of me.

Nigel: Oh, that’s a claim to fame. I love that. 

Fred: Yeah. My clarinet teacher walked out on my lessons. Like, ‘I’m through with you. Boom!’. Because I was a smart Alec and I thought I knew everything, and I would question everything. And I got I kicked out of high school jazz ensemble before the same reason.

Undisciplined talent

Here’s the thing. I was tough to teach and I would question everybody. We had a great high school jazz ensemble. We had guys who went on to Juilliard, who went on to be symphony conductors. It was a great music program. 

I was such a pain – I was playing lead alto. I think at that point the band director kicked me out of the band. But he let me have my own group, bring some of the other guys and have my own band. Because he knew that I had talent, but I was so undisciplined. That he had to figure some way to keep it. I mean, he had meetings with my parents and, you know…

Nigel: I wish you’d told me all this before I recruited you for the Sax School tutor team!

So, so I’m curious to know what was the thing? Were you bored playing in a band? Obviously you had, like you said, you had talent, you had skills, but they weren’t in the right direction. So was it just about conforming? Was that the thing?

Fred: I’m just a smart ass. What can I say? I mean, that’s really all it is. I mean, I was making jokes and questioning him and saying, ‘no, I think it’s this way’. So I don’t know if it was bored.I’m not like a child prodigy or anything like that. I mean, far from it.

I just feel like I have some talent, you know, but it was totally undisciplined. And there’s some guys that don’t even need to practice and they’re naturally talented. But I don’t think that was it. I had something, you know, and I regret that I didn’t work harder at it.

But I don’t know if I’m getting off topic here.

Product of our limitations

Nigel: I’m just curious. This is why this conversation is really great, because I love to understand how people think. Because that’s how we understand them better as people. And you’re a great player and you’re so inspiring for all of our students by being part of the Sax School tutor team as well.

So now that’s what people see. I want to know though, what was before, to understand who you are and how you got to be who you are. 

So back in school, you weren’t disciplined. And then you had those years where you were kicking around the scene before you got your big break. What was the thing that changed? Because you’re not like that now. When I look at you, I see you as being on track.  You work on your skills all the time and you still practice them hard. So what was the turning point? 

Fred: Well, well, the practicing came very late in my career. And I got by [because] – if I have any gift – I am a very soulful player. That’s what I will say that I can do. Am I a great technician? Absolutely not. Would I be a better technician if I had practiced more? Absolutely. Can most saxophone players that I know do way more things than I can? Absolutely. But, I feel like we are products of our limitations.

And, you know we were talking about David Sanborn. He became who he was because of his limitations, because he had polio as a child and any number of reasons. We’re all products of that.

Impact of the pandemic

But there are also all the other people that actually do the work and put in the time and practice to hone their skills. And I was never disciplined enough to do that until probably 10 years ago, really. I mean, even when I was playing with Average White Band, I got by because they wanted a guy who was soulful and who knew funk music, and I guess was that.

But before that I spent a year and a half playing in a blues band with Matt ‘Guitar’ Murphy and that developed that end of my skillset. But as far as like sitting around playing etudes and working on my technique and all that stuff, I never did.

And it definitely had a negative effect on where I went in my career. And I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s why I didn’t get some of those gigs.  I was never a great sight reader. I also have some ADHD that could have been… – who knows? I’m not going to blame it on that because I was lazy too. I still am to a degree.

But what really did it for me – and it wasn’t that long ago –  the pandemic really made me realize that I have all this time now. And if I don’t do it now and really buckle down and start practicing, getting a routine and sticking to it. Because that was the thing. I was all over the place. So I would start practicing something and realize that I needed to work on this instead and move on to that and never really complete anything. And I suffered because of that.

I mean,I studied with Lou Marini. I could have been the guy that he recommended for for sessions and stuff like that. And I never got that far because I was so undisciplined, you know, I’m sure it was he was frustrated. We’re still friends and everything. But I’m sure I could have gone a lot farther if I had spent the time honing my craft.

Getting fired

Fred: Because I got fired from gigs because of this, you know!

Nigel: tell us about that.What was that experience like?

Fred: So I was out of college. This is probably the one that had the most impact. But I’ve got fired out of high school jazz ensemble, like I told you. But I played in a fusion band in called Nite Sprite. And that was fairly well known in the area that I lived in.

Dave Weckl played drums in the band because we all went to college together. It was a band with some guys that had gone into college with some other guys. It was all original, a lot of original material. And we were playing in New York. We were playing all over the place. The way it happened was I had to sub out a couple of gigs because I got something else. I actually got called to play in the circus – which I also got fired from. I just got bored. 

So I had to sub it out. And they brought in a couple of different guys to take my place. And every one of them was a better saxophone player than I was. All of them. And they were like, ‘Hey, why do we have this guy?’

So they sat me down and said ‘We’re breaking up the band’. When really what they meant was, they were breaking up the band and re-forming it without me. So that’s what happened.

Nigel: ‘Oh, Fred it’s not you, it’s me’. Is that what they were saying? 

Fred: Yeah, right. Exactly. But that was a wake up call for me, because that was a great opportunity. It was a great band. And I have to say, Dave did not vote for me being fired. And now I, Dave and I work together here in St. Louis. 

Turning point

Nigel: And so that was an interesting experience, I’m sure. Like that wake up call where you realize that maybe it’s time to readdress things. What other things were big turning points for you? What about when you’re playing in these different band situations and you’re surrounded by other musicians? Did that have a big influence on you?

Fred: Yeah, I mean, I will say that I find that it’s always best to be the worst player in any situation. Because you don’t really learn if you’re playing with guys that are not up to your level. And fortunately, or unfortunately for me, it wasn’t hard to find players that were better than me.

So I got my butt kicked and at jam sessions many times, and that’s always a great learning experience.  You get on a gig and you get on a jam session and a guy calls a tune that you don’t know. And you make a fool of yourself. So you make a note, ‘Oh, I better go home and learn that tune so next time I can play it’.

I went to a jam session once and I’ll never forget this. The drummer was calling the tunes, which is always a bad thing. Because when the drummers call the tunes they don’t care about how fast the tempos are or whatever, you know?

And the great Bobby Watson, who played with Art Blakey, an amazing alto player – was also he was on the gig. And I was sitting in because the drummer knew me and invited me to come and sit in. So I went and the drummer called some impossible tune at like some impossible tempo. And I did not equip myself very well. And afterwards, Bobby said one of the most polite things I ever had anybody ever say to me: ‘Yeah, man, I can hear you’re really working at it’. It was like, ‘yeah, thanks’.

Educational moments

So, I mean, those are educational moments. Those are the best things that can happen.

And that was part of my problem – I really thought I was a big fish. I was a big fish in a little pond for a long time. Like the first time that I went to the Stan Kenton music camps, the summer camps – which were great experiences. The Stan Kenton Big Band is in residence for a whole week at a university. They they used to do them all over the United States. And the first time I did that, I was hot stuff in my high school band. And I went there and ended up being in the number six band. Those kind of things that make you understand how much you have to learn. And I’ve had quite a few experiences.

Nigel: I bet that was an amazing experience though, as a teenager. Because all of a sudden surrounded by people from presumably a big geographical area, right? And you get the first idea of perspective, I suppose. I mean, for me, that didn’t happen until I actually got to university to study because I come from quite a small area.

So, so that must’ve been a great experience as a teenager.

Great experiences

Fred: It was incredible. I think those things still exist to some degree, but that was a life changing experience for me being involved in that. First of all, you are living, breathing music, 24/7. You’re staying in the college dorms with all these like-minded people. There’s jam sessions at night. You’re hanging out with the guys in the Stan Kenton band. And you’re meeting all these musicians from all over the place. You’re just comparing notes and guys are turning out new music that you never heard.

And it was an incredible experience regardless of what level I ended up being at. And in a lot of ways, that was great for me too, just because it put things in perspective and it made me realize how much work I had to do. If only I had done the work after I figured out how much I had to do.

Nigel: In a way, it’s a bit like when we do our Sax School Weekender events. And we just did one recently in the UK. We had 50 or 60 people come from all around the world actually. And it was the same for them. A lot of the people we were talking to at those events at the Weekender events, they say the same thing. ‘I can’t believe it. I’m surrounded by saxophone players. We’re playing music all day. We’re learning’. But also ‘we’re interacting with other people who think the same way as us.’ And I think that’s a big thing.

Playing funk

So I saw you playing with The Average White Band just recently on your very last UK tour.  And you’ve got the style down – everything abut that is just wonderful. But did you always find yourself going down that sort of funk route in your playing? You mentioned these jazz Jam sessions as well. So were you also thinking ‘maybe I’m a jazz player, maybe I’m a funk commercial player’? Or did you have a clear idea of who you were as a player? 

Fred: I think R&B, funk, soul music has always been the thing that I feel most comfortable playing. Definitely. And jazz is just like a challenge for me. And that’s kind of why I work on it. Because first of all, it it definitely informs my R&B playing. The R&B players that I like the most, are guys that have some jazz vocabulary. And that’s the thing you have to develop.

Guys like Gerald Albright – he can play bebop. Tom Scott, those guys can all play [jazz]. Even Sanborn, even Dave, as much as a blues player, he studied with George Coleman, trying to get that part of his vocabulary. And you could hear a difference from when he started, as he developed as a player.

So yeah it’s a challenge. I’ve never practiced playing R&B, never practiced playing funk. I always worked on playing jazz. But when there’s guys like Joel Frahm and Chris Potter and guys like that around, nobody’s going to ask me to do it. But that’s why I work on it. I work on it because It’s a challenge, you know, and you need that challenge.

Nigel: Yeah. It’s kind of like going to the gym and lifting weights because it benefits you and your whole life, not just because you want your big muscles. So sure. That’s really interesting.

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Touring with Michael McDonald

Nigel: So, okay. So I’m getting a bit of a picture now of Fred. Your journey through making me a little bit concerned, but then getting a few experiences that gave you enlightenment, and changed your perspective on things. 

You did a tour with Michael McDonald. I mean, that must’ve been an iconic part of your experience of your career. Where does that fit into the story? 

Fred: Well this is when I was playing with Average White Band. And I have to preface this by saying forever – since he came on the scene – he’s been one of my favorite singer-songwriters. I love Michael McDonald’s music.

And I’d never gotten even to see him live. He never toured where where I was or for whatever reason, I never got to see him. But I had all his records. Huge fan. And Average White Band was doing a tour with Hall & Oates and Michael McDonald. Three bands. 2004. It was called the Rock and Soul Review.

And so I did that. We were ready to do that. So I was just excited for the possibility of being able to hear Michael McDonald every night in a show. We would open the show and then Michael would play a set, and then Hall & Oates. And then we would do a whole thing at the end with all three bands.

So I was just excited being able to hear Michael every night. I was really psyched for that. Two weeks before the the tour Vince Denham, who was Michael saxophone player, had to have emergency surgery. And I was really looking forward to meeting Vince because he played with Kenny Loggins on some really great records. And so I really wanted to get the hang with him as well.

More opportunities

So their tour manager put out a panic call to Hall & Oates’ tour manager and Average White Band’s tour manager. And fortunately, Average White Man’s tour manager picked up the phone. So our tour manager called me. I don’t know if he knew how much I dug Michael McDonald but he was like ‘would you want to go on and play three tunes with Michael McDonald on the tour?’ And I almost dropped the phone. I was like ‘so you’re saying I get to play with Michael McDonald. They’re going pay me extra to play with him. I get to hear Michael McDonald in my in ear monitors every night. Yeah, of course I wanted to do it.’

So I went early to the to the beginning of the tour. I rehearsed with him, I got to meet him. And I got to meet the band, which was incredible experience. The piano player was a guy that I’d never met named Pat Coil. He played famously with the North Texas State One o’Clock Band, a great piano player. It was just a great experience all around.

And Michael still is one of the sweetest guys I’ve ever met in the music business. It was just a great opportunity. He was grateful because I was kind of saving the show by being able to come out and play three tunes.

And then maybe after week of the tour, he said, ‘why don’t you just stay out for the whole show? Don’t just come out for the three tunes.’

So I got to do most of the tour. Vince came back for the last two or three weeks of the tour. But I got to play the whole tour. Plus we broke off at one point and did a couple of gigs just with Michael and his band – like a week of touring with that.

Recording Motown

Plus I got to play on the Motown2 record. We had a day off and Mike’s manager called me and said, ‘Hey, do you mind coming in and playing the intro to What’s Going On? Because it’s all Motown tunes, so it’s got the sax thing in the beginning. And I could play it in my sleep, I played it so many times. 

It was on a day off. We were in New Jersey. So the session was in New York. And I go in and Mike’s sitting in the control room and he’s like, ‘Oh man, thank you so much for this.’ And I was like, ‘Oh, are you serious? Do you know what this means to me?’

It was a great opportunity. It was just unbelievable. The highlight of my otherwise mediocre musical career, I would say.

Nigel: And thankfully you didn’t get fired from that gig. 

Fred: That’s one of the ones I didn’t get fired from, yes.

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Teaching in the Sax School tutor team

Nigel: We love you in the Sax School tutor team for all of your teaching. You’re so great at breaking things down, particularly concepts like approaching rhythm and funk and stylistic points. It’s a big part of how you’re helping our members. How did all of the teaching thing evolve for you? 

Fred: Well, this is how it evolved for me – by you asking me to do this. Because prior to this, I had taught some private students and stuff like that. I never taught at a music store or anything like that. Occasionally, kid’s parents would force them to take lessons and they would come to my house and stuff like that.

But this teaching in the Sax School tutor team has been a whole other experience for me. And I really enjoy it so much. Because first of all, teaching adults is way better than teaching kids, for me. Kids – their brains are wet. They’re still not fully formed humans. And a lot of them are there because their parents think it’d be a good idea for them to play an instrument.

Whereas everybody at Sax School wants to be there and they want to learn. And they’re hungry for it. They want to learn so badly. So there’s that aspect of it, that everybody’s grateful. And plus when the light goes on and you explain a concept to them, it’s so gratifying for me that i’m able to do it.

Because when you teach a child or a young adult, it takes them a while to process some of that stuff. And they might not understand it until 10 years down the line, they go, ‘Hey, that’s what that guy was talking about’.  With adults they grasp the concepts so much quicker. So it’s instant gratification for me.

How teaching improves my playing

And the fact that it really makes me have to think about things that I don’t ever think about doing. Producing a sound or whatever it is. I have to go back and try to figure out how to explain to somebody what I’m doing. Because I do kind of consider myself self taught, even though I, you know, I studied with this guy and this guy. And so maybe I didn’t learn things quite the right way. SO I have to come up with a way to explain it to an adult, that gets the point across.

Nigel: Well, I think to be honest with you, Fred, I think everybody who’s passionate about teaching has that same experience. It makes you a better player by being a good teacher. You need to have a clear way. You need to codify what you’re doing to yourself, so that you can then explain it to somebody else. And that just is only going to make you understand what you’re doing and talking about, more deeply. You’re going to understand it better. So yeah, it’s brilliant.

Well, look, you know what? What you’re doing is great in the Sax School tutor team. And we love all the things that you do. I know you make a big impression on our students. And that I’m so glad that you enjoy doing it, because I’ve got so many more things that I want you to teach our people inside Sax School. So don’t worry, you’ll be busy for a while. 

Takeaways

Fred: I just want to say one thing. ‘Do as I say, not as I do’  – that’s the big takeaway from this little session right here. Don’t do what I did. 

Nigel: Well, that’s good to hear you say that actually. 

Fred: Because now I know how to do it. I know what needs to be done. That doesn’t mean that I’m always doing it, but I do know what needs to be done now. I know how to get some things across. Ad I’ve got a lot of bad habits that I’m still trying to break, but I do know that they’re bad habits. 

Nigel: I think the other big takeaway from hearing your story, Fred – the underlying thread all the way through –  is that you were always going out and finding new playing opportunities. You are learning, you are growing and you’re developing as a player. And everyone’s journey is a little bit different.

We mentioned Andy Snitzer before and I love the sessions he’s done for Sax School. It seemed as if he just like came out of the womb and he could play saxophone like that I’m sure he did a million hours of practice. But he got some wonderful breaks when he was still in high school, and touring with Bob James when he was in college.

So everyone’s journey is different, but the important thing is that everyone’s journey is with steps moving forward.

So your story is different to my story, is different to Joel’s story or all the other guys that teach in the Sax School tutor team. But the common thread is that we’re all moving forward and growing and taking opportunities. And I think that’s a brilliant takeaway for anybody listening to this, who’s maybe wondering how they’re going to craft some sort of future career in their playing.

Say yes

Fred: Yeah. I think the operative thing here is to say yes. That should be your first impulse. I mean, I took every gig when I was growing up and like I said, I’ve been playing since I was 10. And my dad was a musician, so I would go out and play gigs with him, back when I was like 14 or 15. For no money. It was just an opportunity for him to have a free saxophone player. But I learned that you’ve got to say yes to every possibility because you never know where where that opportunity is going to lead.

If I didn’t do some of the things I did, I wouldn’t have met some of the guys that I met, and I wouldn’t have gotten any of the gigs that I got. It’s all about that network and that you got to say yes.

Nigel: Yeah. Love it. Great takeaway. Hey, thanks so much for telling us all about that stuff, Fred.

Next Steps

And if you’re listening to this and you’re not a member of Sax School, you’ve got to come and check out what we’re doing. You get a chance to see all of the lessons that Fred’s done for us. Plus also get access to thousands of other lessons and all the structured courses that we’ve got, plus the help from our Sax School tutor team.

So we’re doing a 14-day free trial at the moment. Come along and see what we’re doing. We’d love to help you out with your playing.

And also, if you’re enjoying the podcast, I’d love it if you could maybe subscribe and maybe even tell a friend about it too, so we can help to spread the message.

Thanks a bunch though, Fred, and we need to have more conversations like this. 

Fred: Yeah, I need therapy. That’s what I need. 

Nigel: Well, thanks for talking to me, Fred. Thanks everyone for listening. We’ll catch you next time.

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